Primary Source Interview: Nick Canovas of Mic the Snare on The Creator Economy as Business Infrastructure

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (00:00):

There you go.

Mike Dias (00:02):

Okay. So most people don't know that you have a sound engineering degree from UMass Lowell, and most people see YouTube as writing editing game. How does thinking like an engineer change how you approach making videos that people actually finish watching?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (00:19):

Oh, I think it's in two levels. I think there's the more practical side first of just simply recording and editing the audio so that it's at a tolerable level. I'm sure you know, and I'm sure the headline readers know that usually in the world of video, most people can accept poor or mediocre video if the audio is solid or at least legible, but the inverse is not true. You could have beautiful 8K footage and if it sounds like it's coming out of a tin can, people will be clicking off. So I think on the most surface level, it's about creating videos that no spikes in audio, no weird dips, nothing. Even when I'm doing, for lack of a better word, ship posts or memes that might be a little bit loud in terms of how they're normally done. I try to make sure it's not too jarring or anything like that.

(01:18):

At the same time though, so that's the surface level. But on the deeper end, I think the engineering background helped give me a good understanding of what it means to not even just make a song, but to make a recording. There was a particular class that we had done in critical listening where there were a lot of very heavy conceptual terms that were thrown around, things that about ideal dynamic level and all the sort of stuff that most people do not think about when they're listening to music. And even once you get out of the degree program, you're not always thinking about intended dynamic level or all these sorts of things, but it's all teachings that sort of seep into what you do. And so you might not call upon it in a way that's like, "Oh, I learned this specific thing from here," but it's just sort of a more holistic understanding of what it means to make a song.

(02:14):

This might be a little too conceptual, but I think sometimes a YouTube video has the arc of a song, or at least both are there to tell a journey or a story or to pass on some form of emotional connection to the audience. And that can be humor, entertainment, education, ideally all three, if you can really make it work. And I think there's something to be said for this idea of creativity manifests itself no matter what you're doing. And so whether you're making a song, whether you're engineering a song, whether you're making a YouTube video, whether you're telling a story in a podcast or anything like that, the beats are all kind of the same at the end of the day. You go about them in different ways, but everything's kind of linked in that way, if that makes sense.

Mike Dias (03:07):

It not only makes sense, but it was right where I was going. To me, an engineer's job is to shepherd the project from idea through creation to final, which like you just said, is act of storytelling. And so I think that your invisible hand behind the scene is what makes you such a great storyteller. Is this something you've really thought of before and really lean into, or is it just something you do instinctively?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (03:41):

I think it's kind of both. I think I definitely in the past couple of years try to identify the parts of a good story and break them down as best as I can. And so I script out all of my videos. So I do have the general arc of like, here's what I want to set up, here are the stakes that are involved, here are the different paths we're going to take to get there, and then here's the ending. So there is, even if I'm not necessarily scripting it out as exactly as that per video, I do know the beats or the specific techniques that I want to employ in order to tell a story, whether that's involving different characters in it, which is I'm one character, but then maybe you're a character when we did the in- ears video or when I bring in clips with other people talking their characters as well to flesh out that story.

(04:37):

I'm aware of repetition of things that I want to repeat multiple times through the video, especially if it's like the key point I'm trying to get across. I'm working on a video right now where I was very particular about having one line that repeats multiple times throughout the video because it's the one thing that I think ties the era that I'm speaking about altogether. So that's all on the technical side. I will say too though, a lot of it is feel. Sculpting it and scripting it in that way of course matters and having a technical, more thought out reason for a lot of the things that I do with a lot of the ways that I make the videos. But I think at the end of the day too, you've got to be able to sit down and enjoy watching it. There has to be that more intangible feeling you get of are the jokes landing?

(05:31):

Do the points flow correctly? Am I understanding what I'm doing? Because I mean, you had mentioned before that I'm the one shepherding this whole thing from start to finish, which sometimes unfortunately means I'm wearing so many hats that I can get lost in the weeds in one section, and then that can kind of plot my vision going into something else. So simply put, I just need to be able to sit there in front of Da Vinci Resolve and say to myself, is this a good video? Am I enjoying watching it? Am I getting something out of it as a creative endeavor? Am I getting something out of it in terms of the things that I've learned and the things I'm trying to impart into the audience? I think it does ultimately come down to that more succinct human feeling that you get when you watch the videos, even if the journey to get there has intention behind it.

Mike Dias (06:25):

I love it. I love everything you're saying. And so I'm going to go off my own script for a second, but you know how important the script is to me and my core belief of business. What advice can you give to any company, any brand, any person about operating with a script or just winging it? I mean, it sounds like script is your Bible, homing pigeon, home base, it's everything. So kind of riff on that idea of what does script mean to you and how do you apply that to the larger picture of anybody trying to create anything or get any message across?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (07:10):

Oh, that's a good question. Okay. Stop me if I stop making sense,

(07:16):

But here's what I'm thinking. I think of the idea of you make rules to break them, or you learn rules so that you can break them more effectively. When I make scripts, there's almost like two separate scripts. There's the script that's on the page in Notion that I'm writing out, and then there's the script that's happening in my brain. And the script in Notion, the script that's on the page is the Bible to a certain extent in terms of the things that I want to say and how I want to communicate them. That said, if you were to look at any of my scripts and not have any idea of what I'm trying to do in my head, you look at it and be like, "Nick, what the fuck is this? This looks insane. This looks like the scriptles of a madman." And sometimes they do look like that because there are certain references or certain parentheticals I will put in that are more for visual gags or more for inserts in some other way.

(08:18):

And so the script that's on the page is maybe 80% of the way that I want it to reflect in the video. At the same time though, my favorite step when it comes to the video making process is editing because it's when the video starts to make sense in a way that isn't just solely what I'm thinking in my head. All the disparate parts are coming together to really form the story. Because even in the script, it's mostly the beats that I'm laying out right on the page. It's when you get the words I'm saying and that relates to clips that I'm playing and highlighting certain things that I want to express through the culmination and the combination of all these different clips. So all of that's to say when it comes to advice, when it comes to sticking to the script or winging it, I often find having a script can be the best excuse for winging it because usually when you've made a script, that's indicative of you doing your research, you thinking things out as clearly as you can, you taking all the steps that you have in mind to see some project through.

(09:28):

And if you've done all of that, then there might be instances or times where you're like, "Oh, well, when I put these two clips together, they don't really make too much sense. Maybe I need to add in some other extra piece to better tie them together." Or, "Oh, maybe this thing here doesn't really need to go here because it's repeating something that I just said, but maybe it could be used later down the line as a reminder to the audience of the pieces they need to be thinking about. " And so it's kind of a both sides answer, but I think if you take the time to make the script and to make sure that you're following it to the best of your ability, I think that ultimately gives you permission to experiment or try new things in a more, what's the word I'm looking for?

(10:19):

In a more informed manner, if that makes sense.

Mike Dias (10:21):

It makes perfect-

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (10:22):

It's not just ... Yeah, yeah,

Mike Dias (10:23):

Yeah. And what I love is that you incorporate visual elements into your script. You've got the concept of how it's going to not just flow, but also look and feel. And what many people don't know is that you were a top radio DJ before YouTube and radio is the original pair of social media, people driving in their cars, people being alone, letting strangers in their head space. So a two-part question, what did radio teach you about earning the right to someone's time and attention and how much of what works on Micah Snare is actually just radio principles applied to a screen?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (11:00):

Ooh, okay. The first question you asked was how to gain the audience's time and attention. Is that right?

Mike Dias (11:09):

Yeah. How did radio teach you about earning the right to someone's time and attention?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (11:13):

I think you have to have something that warrants their time and attention in the first place. You could be the prototypical college DJ who gets on the mic and is shuffling papers and saying ... So that was TV on the radio with their hit, Wolf Like Me. You could be like that, which I think is indicative of someone who is winging it, but hasn't done the work, the prep work involved. Or the way that I wanted to do it was, of course there's going to be music. And of course I'm going to plan out the playlists that I have ahead of time, but at the same time, I'm going to throw in news, I'm going to throw in weather updates for anybody who might be traveling in the car and wants to know is Lowell about to get a foot of snow. I'm throwing bits of personality too to living things up.

(12:12):

Aside from just the news segment, I had a bit of news segment that was specifically geared towards good news that had happened during the week just in case somebody wanted something more uplifting to think about. I had the dad joke of the week at the top of the hour, and that was kind of my way of building in more of a brand and something more humorous in that way. I think it's really just a matter of building something that values the audience's time, that values their attention, and ultimately gives them something of value to walk away with. And I find if you can do that, if you can provide value in some way, you're golden. There's so much of the internet nowadays that is ... YouTube uses the specific phrase. It's like ... What's the phrase? I'm trying to think of it. Unmemorable moments, I think is what they call it, where it's like you scroll on your feed or you watch a video and it's like, "Yeah, I guess I watched it, but what did I get after it?

(13:20):

" You know what I mean? I watched it because it was there. I watched it because I didn't know what else was better to do. So much of the internet can be built on those unmemorable moments or even regrettable moments where you're just like, "Man, why the hell did I watch that? " You know what I mean? Why did I even do that in the first place? That might be the title of the article, regrettable moments.

Mike Dias (13:47):

So this is a perfect jump to just talk about, again, parasocial trust architecture. You have 45 million views. That's 45 million people who made a decision. I want this person's voice in my head on a regular basis, and that's not a casual choice. So why are they actually choosing Mike the Snare? What is it that they get on the surface, but what is it that they're actually getting? What is the compact with you?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (14:26):

I think of it as a sort of jack of all trades approach where it's like there are a number of different things that on their own might not necessarily get someone's attention or respect, but I think all combined together would do it. For one thing, my research is thorough. When I'm looking at ... I'm doing a video coming up on Stevie Wonder and I've got three books saved now that I'm trying to dig into his early Motown days and try to figure out why did Motown have him do a beach, like a surfer rock album? Why would they do that? I am always asking myself in the process of the videos, why? Why did someone do this? Why does someone think this? Why does someone say that? Why did X company make Y decision? Why did X artist make Y album? It's an eternally inquisitive approach that I try to bring to all of my videos.

(15:22):

Second, in tandem with the research, I am also cognizant to not overload the viewer with it. I'm not trying to do just ... If I just presented them with all of the research on its face, I'd be a Wikipedia article. And Wikipedia articles have, they have their purpose 100%, but people don't come to me for the same reason they come to a Wikipedia article. What I try to do is I try to distill it down then that research into the core points of the story I'm trying to tell. So I can find all the anecdotes about those Motown albums that I can, but for the purpose of the story, some of them may not necessarily matter as other points. And that's not me trying to sculpt a false story. You know what I mean? I'm not trying to create something salacious or flat out wrong, but I'm trying to find the points that matter most in why did Stevie Wonder start like this?

(16:17):

What bits from this time inform what he would go on to do in the 70s and beyond and why does all of that matter in the grand scheme of popular music at the time? I'm trying to distill the research I've done before into the most salient bits that are most relevant and important for the viewer to see. That's part two. I would say the third part is that at the end of the day, I simply want to be entertained and I think the viewer does as well. So when I'm going through these stories, I'm trying to crack jokes, I'm trying to find little fun moments to intersperse references to popular music at the time, but also of the current day. I'm trying to create this holistic view of what it means to be a music fan, talking about not just the personal aspect of it, but also the engineering side of it, the production, the performance.

(17:07):

I'm trying to fully understand and, what's the word I'm looking for, step into that persona of the ultimate music fan. And I'm hoping when people watch my videos and walk away with it, they're kind of left with that too, of having this really well-rounded, well-researched, but still enjoyable and memorable look at some part of the music world, whether it's Stevie Wonder or if it's about in- ears or AI music or anything else that's going on.

Mike Dias (17:39):

Dude, this is just fucking gold. Okay. So yeah, this dovetails to this next ... And this is a big one because I think from listening to you and from where I'm sitting right now, I'm going to position this basically like what your marketing team can learn from the creator economy. If a marketing team performed anything close to the thoroughness that you're talking about, brands would move mountains. Clearly, this is not how most people approach their craft. And so your videos, you can range to a 30 to 40 minute video and in an era of TikTok and Reels, that's insane. And I know that you have people who watch it all the way through. What type of trust infrastructure has to exist for someone to play on a 45-minute video essay? Oh.People are giving you a lot of uninterrupted time.

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (18:40):

Right. I think this is going to be a multiple different points. So

Mike Dias (18:46):

Stop

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (18:47):

Me if I hit on one that's especially relevant or stop me if there's one that's like I'm repeating myself or something like that. I think on two levels, it's things that we've talked about already. So I think it kind of goes back to the engineering side of it where it's like at the absolute baseline level, I make videos that sound tolerable, which is the most basic way I can put it. I try to make them sound good across the board, but I make things that people on just a physiological level would want to sit through all the way through. On top of that, it goes back as well to talking about value and valuing people's time and finding the most salient bits of what you're talking about. Not every single person needs to know the entire liner notes of a specific album or all these little things.

(19:41):

Of course, it's good to research that for a more informed perspective, but at the end of the day, it's not like you're a Wikipedia article again. And again, Wikipedia articles have their place, but it's like you are trying to craft something that respects people's time and that doesn't bond them down in too many details. And I think talking about trust infrastructure, there's an element of this too where it's like, I have something over larger brands where I am one person. I look at some of the other review outlets that are out there and there seems to be this growing intention with them because they think, "Oh, Pitchfork gave this Billy Eilish album of 6.5, but then they gave this Taylor Swift album up 7.2." They're totally inconsistent with their rankings. Now, when you dig into it, it's like, "Oh, well, there are different people reviewing it, but there just seems to be a large swath of the public that doesn't understand this.

(20:41):

" They think Pitchfork is the one that is rating all of these albums and Pitchfork is the one voice here. On my end with Mike the Snare, I am the one voice. When I talk about songs in the Key of Life or Michael Jackson Spoiler, it's me talking about it. They don't need to worry about like, "Oh, well, what is this guy thinking or why is he so all over the place?" It's like, no, it's my own perspective and it's just one guy saying it. And I think that lends a certain humanity to it that may not be present with a brand that may have some kind of public facing media or presentation, but it's a lot easier for me just by virtue of me being one person to appear that way versus a larger company. And so that way I can come in. And this is also something that's intentional on my end too.

(21:35):

I'm not trying to talk down to anybody. I'm not trying to appear pompous or say that I know all the answers. Oftentimes, if there's a record I don't care for in my videos, I will try to give as many reasons as possible for like, "Well, here's why I might not care for it and you might feel differently." I remember a couple years back I covered Athex Twin and one of his most famous albums is entirely ambient music. I don't rock with ambient music really at all. It takes a lot for me to fully enjoy it on an attentive level, but at the same time when I talked about the record, I was like, "Hey, this is where I'm coming into with this. " So I might not be the best person to tell you whether or not this is a successful or quality ambient album.

(22:24):

If you want to find those people who might say that about the album, you can find those people as well. The album has a very good reputation. So I think it's that level of just simply me being one person that builds trust, but then also I attempt at all times to say, "Hey, I'm not any better than any of you watching. I'm not some mythical music God or anything like that. I'm just one person who became very fascinated with a certain topic, wanted to learn about it as much as I could and wanted to give that information to you in an informative and entertaining manner."

Mike Dias (22:59):

I think what you're explaining is really authenticity and intentionality.

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (23:03):

100%, yes.

Mike Dias (23:06):

So I have a question of going back again to your engineering roots and to a lot of the themes we cover in this usually, right? This is what you're talking about. You take incredibly complex music theory, industry history, production technique, and you make it feel like conversations with a friend who just happens to know everything. To me, that's translation work, the same thing that any great engineer does. How do you think about the translation layer? You've kind of already talked about that, but it bears just calling out on its own section there.

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (23:43):

That's a good ... Oh, man. So it is actually, it's a thing that I've had to work on, honestly, for a while, because especially in my early years, I just sort of assumed people knew what I was talking about, and oftentimes I would be surprised with how niche my knowledge base was. And it took a lot of times for me to better understand, oh, really I've got to be coming at this in a different way than assuming even a moderate amount of music or engineering knowhow to the general audience. I think of when we were working together and we were trying to get in with streamers and I was setting up calls with some of them that we had sent mics to so that they could use their microphones with go XLRs, like those audio interfaces. And when I was on the call, I would be like, "All right, so since this is a condenser, you just have to turn on phantom power and then you should be good." And they would say to me, "What's phantom power and what's a condenser?" And I was like, "Oh, I'm assuming too much already." It's so easy to be bogged down in the minutia of engineering and music in general, but specifically the engineering side that it can often be or something that I've fallen into in the past where it's like you assume people know things or you assume that everybody has this working knowledge base and the reality is that they don't, but it's then on you to help navigate those discrepancies in knowledge.

(25:20):

It's up to you to describe the things that you want in a more general way. Even if you yourself know the specifics and the logistics behind it, it ultimately matters more. It's like, it doesn't matter if you're right, it matters if you can get the job done. And it's like, I'm sure everybody who's reading, and I'm sure Mike, you've worked with people who often assume that knowing everything or having all the info makes them better people. And maybe it makes them smarter, maybe. But at the end of the day, you want someone you can work with, you want someone who you can get along with, you want someone who can translate the ideas that are on the page or in the mind to something that is tangible and practical in the real world. And you just want someone who can get that stuff done without being a jerk or without being pompous about it.

(26:18):

Again, and this is something that took me ages to realize too of like, that's ultimately what the skillset and the knowledge base is for. It's not for making your brain grow big or making your sense of self grow bigger. It's about having the tools in a sense to get the job done or to see a project through. Does that answer your ... I feel like I may have gone off on a tangent there.

Mike Dias (26:42):

It doesn't just answer my question. If you put this in a lens of marketing advice, this is the most profound and clear directive that anyone has ever given to any marketing team, right? Oh,

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (26:56):

Wow.

Mike Dias (26:57):

Okay. Think about this. It doesn't matter what your product does. It doesn't matter what you think it does. It doesn't matter what you know. If you cannot convey any of it in a way that matters to your audience with the why. I mean, think about what you've been able to achieve through that, which kind of just goes back to this. When you published your first video, you had zero brand equity, right? No institution behind you, no legacy, credibility, just a dude on the internet saying, "Trust me to explain music to you. " Right. So how do you build that trust from absolute zero? What is the bootstrapping process?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (27:40):

It might be generic to say, and it might be kind of like a awe man answer, but it's really about just doing the same thing at a consistent quality level for a long, long period of time. And even once you've gotten to that place where you do have brand equity, you still have to keep putting in the work. You never get to escape the work and if you try, then it always bites you in the ass. It is always the thing that matters most, and it's the thing that over time ... And we're talking like ... I mean, I'm young still in the grand scheme of things, but it's like I already see the game ahead of me where it's like, I am invested to play this out over the next year, five years, 10 years, so on, so forth. And when I say that, I mean in this moment like Mike Visner and what I'm doing there, but there's a broader sort of goal or a broader sort of thing that I want to put out into the universe with any project that I do.

(28:49):

At the moment, we've been talking a lot about short form, but I'm also in the middle of experimenting and trying to crack the nut with ... Or sorry, we've been talking about long form, but I'm trying to crack the nut with short form. And that's been a really interesting challenge because the work is still there. In a sense, it's almost like I'm rebuilding or building again the brand equity of Mike the Snare, but for a different audience and a different value proposition. We've been talking about long form and I'm not overwhelming the viewer with details or info, that's especially true like 10, 20 X times more true when it comes to short form. You really only get one thing that you get to tell the audience in short form, and after that, you're overloading them, but that brings with it interesting challenges as well. And this might be part of it as well, it's about trying to find challenges that you want to take on, because there are so many challenges that maybe you're not necessarily interested in.

(29:51):

You see them and it's like, "Oh man, someone else can figure that out, but that's not for me. " You want to find the challenges that drive you. You look at it and you're like, "Oh, I I want to be the person who figures out this. And I think that brings with it energy that, again, going back to this idea of doing the work, you need to have that energy for the long haul and you need to find ways to keep up with the energy and to find it again, because we're all people at the end of the day. Our interests, our specific interests change over time. And it's good to keep your thumb on that pulse, not only just in the general pop culture sense, but also on yourself. Because some people out there are cool doing the same kind of work for years and decades on, but I think a lot of people are a lot more ... I think about the artists that I cover and it's like David Bowie's first album did not sound like his last.

(30:46):

The Beatles first album did not sound like their last. Even Stevie Wonder, his first album did not sound like his last.

(30:55):

There needs to be this ... Artists and creatives are willing to follow their vice in that way because it leads to their best work and the stuff that they're most excited about. And I think any creative, whether it's like a musician or a content creator or a marketing professional, needs to be able to follow both the attention of what's going on at the time, but also their own attention and try to see whether those overlap. Again, I feel like I rambled on and may have lost a lot, but let me know if that answers your question.

Mike Dias (31:28):

Yeah. That not only does it answer it, dude, we're just fucking playing ball. So it sounds like done, right? With everything you're talking about, YouTube can change the algorithm tomorrow and cut your each in half. You have no control over the platform, and yet you build a sustainable business on top of it. So how do you contextualize that risk? Are you building on rented land or do you see it differently?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (31:52):

I see it in two ways. On one way, you're exactly right. YouTube could flick a switch tomorrow and then all of my videos that normally would work suddenly don't. At the same time, I have found across the board that the switches that they flick usually take ... Well, actually, let me put it like this. I think there's two different things that we talk about when we talk about YouTube. There's one, the algorithm where, yeah, you could flip the switch and something could be different, but I think there's also something to be said for the audience at large. And so I feel like at times YouTube is trying to chase them as much as I'm trying to chase them. Wait, wait, say that again. I feel like at times YouTube is trying to chase the audience as much as I'm trying to chase them.

(32:49):

I think they have a lot of data and they probably have a lot of very smart people who could answer the question a little bit more holistically than I could just based on what I've done. But we're all trying to do the same thing. And what they're trying to do in terms of algorithm tweaks or adding these new features, I think is just trying to figure out what exactly it is that people want. And that's a very fickle thing, even in long form and especially in short form. It's such a fickle thing where attentions just shift overnight and trends that have been taking over fall off within a week.

(33:27):

It's really about understanding ... It's a weird thing where it's like, I think in order to build a sustainable business long-term, at least in the sections of the business that depend on these platforms, you really need to think in weeks, if not days, when it comes to what you're trying to do. And I'm also lucky in this in a sense where I've built that long-term brand equity on long form. And so in short form, I can really just mess around and do whatever I want and experiment with new formats, kind of like how it was when I first started. And so in short form, not everything might be a hit, but it's like I'm trying to discover the audience again. And when I do overlap, I have a new series called Guess the Song from the Snare, where I play snare drums from famous songs and people try to guess in the comments of what it is, and then I play the full track.

(34:21):

And it's like finding those ways to engage the audience often is the best way to engage the algorithm because if I have something that's giving viewers those long-term or giving viewers long-term satisfaction, that sends the right triggers to the algorithm that, oh, what I'm making is worth watching for more people, and then it pushes it out more from there. At the same time though, so that's one element of when it comes to these platforms, I do also acknowledge that there could be one day where they flick a very, very, very big switch in the back of their office and then I basically lose it all. I've been trying to, in tandem with all that I've been doing on the algorithmic side, I've been trying to build more personal connections with the audience and with the folks around me in this community and this industry. So I've started a Patreon recently that's where I get to not only demonstrate or provide the videos without ads or sponsors and with early access, but I'm also with the Stevie Wonder video, I'm actually debuting a new process for the series where I tell them who the artist is ahead of time, and then I provide them with updates as we go on.

(35:37):

And then that way they get to comment on the music I'm talking about, what they like about it, things that maybe they know about it that I don't yet. And in really trying to make this more of a community-driven thing as opposed to me and my ivory tower making a video and then putting it out for people to watch. It's really like trying to build different tiers in terms of how engaged someone is with what I do. And in tandem with the Patreon, Nebula has been phenomenal so far. I've really been building inroads there and getting the word more out about the platform, and I'm hoping to do an original with them at some point.

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (36:23):

So it's about building out these larger connections beyond just simply what the algorithm is telling me. Because on one hand, I'm trying not to chase the algorithm so much as I'm trying to chase the audience. I'm using the tells that the algorithm and analytics are giving me to make better videos as opposed to ones that are just trying to suck away all of the watch time that I can from everybody who's there. I'm trying to make the best videos I can from an informed place. And I think that process lends itself to, if YouTube does go away at some point, I don't think that'll ever happen.

(37:17):

But if it does, then I still have these skills to tell stories and I still have a name that people can trust and that people want to turn to.

Mike Dias (37:26):

Well, here's where this gets super interesting. So the audience has a relationship with you. People are coming back for more. It's not just that they like the content, they like you, they like your brand, your persona, who you are, what you represent, the way you engage, but is it a two-way street? How do you think about your audience? Do you engage with your audience as much as they engage with you?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (37:55):

Oh, that's a good question. I think for a while it had been lopsided in that I wanted to maintain distance from it because especially in earlier years, I was so worried about, you see the horror stories of people who fully gave themselves and their minds away to the internet and it just completely ruins them. I've heard countless horror stories and I was very worried that would happen with me. I'm at a point now where I would say that probably won't unless something goes catastrophically wrong, but there was a worry for a long time of losing my own sense of self in that process. I think I'm now at a point where by just simply offering these different en routes to the process where the Patreon and the Nebula and all that sort of stuff, I'm building out these avenues where it's like I feel a little more comfortable about jumping in with the community, giving them my takes, learning things that I may not have considered.

(38:55):

I guess I've been more open to it now than I have been really at any other point in the channel, but there is still a part of me that wants to make sure I never fully give Mike this now or really Nick Knovis away to the internet. I want there to be two separate sides, even if at times the names can be interchangeable. Does that make sense?

Mike Dias (39:17):

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, which kind of what I've got to ask. You have hundreds of thousands of stakeholders with an opinion about everything you do, right? It's more stakeholders than most CEOs have to manage. How do you balance what your audience wants, what you want to make, what your sponsors need, and what the algorithm rewards?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (39:38):

Oh, wow. Oh, that could be any number. I could take that in any number of directions. Oh, that's a very big question. I think maybe this is a little corny, but I think it's true. I think it does come down to having just a strong sense of creative self and understanding that at the end of the day, you could give yourself fully away to any of the stakeholders, to the audience, to the sponsors, to the algorithm, to anything like that. But I think it's worth reminding yourself of why people showed up in the first place and they came for a person. They came for a person who was honest, who was authentic, who was relatable, who was kind in how they talked about things. And that's the thing that's really at the end of the day there. These specifics of the series and the video titles and the topics, all of that is ultimately dressing for what the people really want to come for.

(40:46):

And I'm not saying that the dressing doesn't matter fully. You still need to be mindful of the dressing at times. And there might be times where being that most authentic version of yourself in terms of the video or the packaging may not necessarily work out in an algorithmic sense. But I've been trying to adopt this process more and more of every video is a win in some way where it's like maybe a video is a win with the algorithm, maybe it's a win for bringing in new people to the Patreon or Nebula, maybe it's a win for video editing skills or scripting skills. Maybe it's a win in some other way, like a video where maybe you talk about an artist that you love and maybe it doesn't get a lot of views, but then you get people telling you, "Hey, I went and saw a show when they were in town because of you and you talking about them." I think that's the best way to look at it where it's like maybe ... And this is kind of a beautiful thing with creators where it's like, for the most part, one video does not define you.

(41:52):

It's sort of the promise and realization of all the videos in aggregate because all of them are coming together to tell a larger story about you or a larger brand promise that you're giving people. And I think nailing that in the long term makes everyone ultimately happy, even if they're not the happiest in the exact moment, even if they're bummed if I don't do a video on a certain topic or something like that, I think having that mindset and being clear about the long-term goal of it all and making sure everything is a win as best as you can make it ultimately makes everyone happy in the long term.

Mike Dias (42:34):

Dude, dude, I could stop here. How are you for time? Because I have four more that I really want to

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (42:41):

Ask. I'm good. Yeah, please keep it going.

Mike Dias (42:43):

So most creators burnout, most businesses fail, and it turns out that consistency is the easiest thing to understand and yet the hardest thing to do. And you have been doing this for years. And so what makes your consistency possible? Is it discipline? Is it systems or something psychological?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (43:02):

I think it's probably a combination of all three. I think discipline has to be part of it. And I think especially in the ... Here's a sort of thing that is maybe a bummer for someone to learn or any creative to learn, but the audience doesn't necessarily care how much effort you put in. You know what I mean? If you put in effort, they'll notice it, but it's not always the draw, especially in the online realm. And so there's these two creators, Colin and Samir, who are big in the business of the creator economy, and I follow them for years. I think they're great. And they have a mantra where it's like, if the video is 80% good, then it's ready to ship. It is so much better to simply make something to the best of your ability and then put it out than it is to endlessly pick and obsess over every single minute detail.

(44:05):

Because ultimately, the video that is 80% good and out is better than the one that's 100% good, but never comes out. You know what I mean? So it's realizing that and realizing too that if you just put in the full extent of ... It's a matter of balancing that side of you that just wants to tinker and endlessly create versus the other side that realizes, okay, but we need to get videos out on a certain deadline. You know what I mean? And that deadline can look different for a lot of different creators. It's not like I have the one size fits all approach to it. There are creators who might be able to put out three hour long videos every six months and that can work for them, but I feel like those are the stories that are the exceptions and not the rule. I feel like the rule is just simply showing up and being a constant presence in someone's life.

(45:06):

I think that's what ultimately creates the most trust for the majority of creators. Again, there are exceptions, but I think they are just that, exceptions. So I think discipline is one part of it. Systems, like you said, are another part of it too. At this point, I know how I edit my videos, I know how I write them, I know the states of mind that I need to be in when I write or when I film or when I edit. And it's about creating not only the systems, but also the circumstances in which I can do my best work. Anthony Bourdain has a quote that I'm going to paraphrase, but it's like, at the end of the day, I'm actually a very lazy guy. I just have a lot of systems in place that make it so the laziness is the most difficult thing to do.

(45:55):

It's a matter of recognizing your own self. And that's why it's so hard to give blanket advice to any creator, because it's like we're all different at the end of the day. Different things motivate us, different things get us out of bed, and it's really about fine-tuning and honing a system specifically for you. It's difficult at times, but if you can do that, in a weird way, it's kind of a form of self-care where it's like you know how your body and mind work, you know what feeds them best. And maybe what feeds them isn't just filming at a certain time of day or doing your prep work the night before you start editing, but maybe it's like having a really good meal before you start working or exercising or anything like that. It's this idea that having a fully rounded life outside of this work ultimately feeds the work itself, even if it's not in a surface level direct way.

(46:56):

It's in a very holistic way of you as a creative and enabling you to do your best work.

Mike Dias (47:02):

Huge. So the last two are going to be pretty powerful. You have seen a lot of different worlds. You've worked in pro audio, you understand corporate product placement, and you've built a creator business from scratch. And so if you were brought into a boardroom to explain what executives fundamentally misunderstand about how modern audiences make trust decisions, what's the one thing they need to hear?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (47:31):

I think actually it's the thing that I said with the previous question, the line about audiences don't necessarily care how much effort you've put into something. At the end of the day, it's ultimately what you're giving them and not what you're as the executive or the people making something or marketing something. It's not what you're getting out of it. At the end of the day, you are here to provide value for your intended audience. And if you focus on that, and if you bring people into the fold who know that, and you enable them to simply work at their best level to do that, you're golden. There are so many ways that we try to overcomplicate it, but really the most ... The best ideas are often the simplest because they're the ones that you can simply tell someone and you're like, "Oh yeah, this is perfect." It's not something where you should have to jump over, excuse me, multiple hoops in order to tell someone about something or convince them of something or explain why they should do this project this way or why they should do something like that.

(48:42):

It's simply getting people together, explaining the vision in as simple terms as you can and in the most value additive ways that you can, and then trusting them to do the right thing.

Mike Dias (48:54):

Bingo. And so lastly, the creator economy, as I see it, is basically build trust, maintain consistency, monetize without corruption, harder to do than it sounds, by the way, adapt to platform changes and operate as a solo CEO. Those are the same challenges that every business faces. So why are creators often better than companies with 10,000 employees?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (49:20):

I think the middle point you had mentioned about respond to algorithm changes, and I'll also add respond to audience changes. I think simply one person doing this on their own is able to move quicker than a company with thousands of employees. They're simply able to just make those gut level decisions and move with a speed that larger companies would need meetings to get people together and then lay out options and schedule follow-ups and one-on-ones and have all these little minute discrepancies of opinion and hone in on the most minor of things. All of that versus just simply getting the thing out, seeing how the audience responds, taking that into consideration when you make your next thing, and so on and so forth. It is simply just the nature of speed of not even just the internet these days, but I would say of humanity. These platforms like YouTube and Instagram and TikTok and all these other ones, this might seem like a little tech Silicon Valley of me to say, but it's like they're integral to most people's lived experiences these days, even if they're not necessarily on my level where it's like, I have to be terminally online for my job, but it's like the very nature of Instagram becoming more and more of an all- in-one hub for messaging your friends and engaging with subway takes or hot ones or Trackstar as these new representations of late night.

(51:02):

It's like that's where the attention is even if general people aren't consciously thinking, "Oh yes, I will now spend an hour of my day on Instagram." It's like that's simply where the people are and the creators who know that and cater to that audience and figure out what they want and move nimbly enough to be able to change when they need to. They're the ones who are cut out to win in the long term. And I think companies at that larger scale just simply aren't able to because of all the people and all of the gatekeepers and decision makers at play.

Mike Dias (51:42):

That's a perfect place to stop. Is there anything else you want to add or anything that I missed?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (51:48):

No, I think that's it. This has been an exhaustive talk, but God, it's been able to get me to say all of the things that I've been thinking in my head, but hadn't been able to say. You know what I mean?

Mike Dias (52:01):

You didn't just say them. It's like we cheated, I gave you all the questions ahead of time and that you ran it through every algorithm that you had to nail. It's perfect. It writes itself. This is a manifesto and a treaty of what every company should be absorbing and acting like. Yeah, dude. I'm going to turn this over to Rev right now to get it transcribed and I'll get you a copy first thing in the morning and I'm going to get to work.

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (52:31):

Beautiful. Thank you for this.

Mike Dias (52:33):

Thank you for this. Are you kidding me?

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (52:45):

Yes, yes, of course. Oh, again, I'm honored. I'm really honored.

Mike Dias (52:51):

Yeah. If you could send me a couple images that you, print ready images, my request is some from the Times Square. I would love to see some images of your script, not what's in your head, but what's written down, especially with those parentheticals and maybe your workflow or your process just to give another understanding or a visual. When you see the transcript and the story arc, just give me images that kind of relate to the story arc that we're telling.

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (53:26):

Okay. I could give you screen grabs of what a completed DaVinci Resolve project looks like, and I can zoom out to show the full timeline.

Mike Dias (53:33):

All of that. Because again, this is not a creator economy story or a creator profile. I really like to use these lenses to tell very large and impactful business stories, and I think that this is a case study that is Harvard Business Ready. And so anything that you could do to help me tell that story, nobody understands the amount of work that goes into the systems, the preparation, the discipline.

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (54:06):

Right, right. Okay. Yeah, I can definitely do that.

Mike Dias (54:09):

Okay. Let me get this transcribed. Thank you. This was an absolute joy of hearing all this.

Nick Canovas (Mic the Snare) (54:15):

Thank you. Thank you so much, Mike. Talk

Mike Dias (54:16):

With you, Nick. Bye. All right, bye.

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