A Career of In-Ears, Gig Gab 237

Dave Hamilton (00:00):

Gigab, the show for working musicians for Monday, March 9th, 2020. Greetings folks, and welcome to Gigab, the show by four and as I said, about working musicians here in Durham, New Hampshire. I'm Dave Hamilton.

Paul Kent (00:36):

Here in San Jose, California, it's Paul Kent.

Dave Hamilton (00:38):

Paul, I have so many things. I had a gig this weekend I want to tell you about. I know you had some gigs this weekend you want to tell us about, but we can't do that today. And the reason we can't do that today is that my microphone's on the wrong side. And the reason my microphone's on the wrong side is that we are ecstatic. I am ecstatic to welcome Mike Dyas, longtime in- ear monitor champion, artist relations, marketing sales, and probably other things at Ultimate Ears for a while. Now with the In-Ear Monitor International Trade Organization, Mike and a good friend. Mike, thank you for coming on the show.

Mike Dias (01:14):

Are you kidding me guys? Thank you so much. It's an honor.

Dave Hamilton (01:17):

It's awesome to have you, man. It's good timing. For years actually, I've been thinking about we need to get you on the show. And so here we are. Here we are. So thanks for coming, man.

Mike Dias (01:29):

Yeah. The time is perfect. I was listening to the episode when you were watching Trey fiddle with his ears. And once we started talking about that, it's great timing to talk about In-Ears in general

Dave Hamilton (01:43):

Industry. Internal. Yeah. So we'll probably dig through the history a little bit, but let's start with the present. Tell us, tell everybody, because the India Monitor International Trade Organization, do we call that IEM ITO?

Mike Dias (01:57):

Yeah. Is

Dave Hamilton (01:57):

That okay to

Mike Dias (01:57):

Call it? Imito for short. It rules off the tongue.

Dave Hamilton (02:00):

Say that again?

Mike Dias (02:01):

I Amito.

Dave Hamilton (02:01):

I Amito. I like this. This is good. It's

Mike Dias (02:03):

A good brand name.

Dave Hamilton (02:04):

It is a good brand name. Yeah, for sure. So tell us, this organization is officially less than a year old, but not ... I mean, in reality, I think it's been building for a while. So tell us a little bit about the genesis of how we got here today.

Mike Dias (02:18):

Yeah. Thanks for opening that up. It's probably better to start with me and my history before we get into

Dave Hamilton (02:25):

The

Mike Dias (02:26):

In- ears. So I am not a musician and I'm not an engineer, which means I snuck into this industry through the side door. Right?

Dave Hamilton (02:35):

But you've been in this, just so everybody knows, I mean, I know I just said it, but you've been in this industry for well over a decade, if not two.

Mike Dias (02:44):

True. True. Almost two decades. So all my friends are musicians and engineers. Let's put it that

Dave Hamilton (02:50):

Way.

Mike Dias (02:51):

There you go. I was introduced to Mindy and Jerry through a mutual friend 20 years ago when they were still running Ultimate Ears out of the back of a tour bus.

Dave Hamilton (02:59):

Mindy and Jerry Harvey, just for people ... And Jerry was a guest on Gigab a couple years ago. We'll put a link in the show notes there for folks that want to hear that. So yeah.

Mike Dias (03:07):

Thanks. And we hit it off. One thing led to another, I started doing a lot of ghost writing for Jerry in the technical trades. And this was early in the in- ear development, right? I mean, just think about this. I don't even think In-Ears had a proper brand name. I think they were still called ...

Dave Hamilton (03:31):

Personal monitors maybe? Yeah.

Mike Dias (03:32):

It was personal monitors.

Dave Hamilton (03:34):

I think so. Yeah. And if you ... Well, there are folks that wish we still used that term, but we don't. It's like Kleenex now and FedEx. We call them in ear monitors because that's what everybody knows them as. Yep, that's right. Thank you. You're

Mike Dias (03:47):

Welcome. And so again, to put this time in perspective, there was just a handful of companies making in- ears for pro musicians. Nobody was doing it for the music lovers, the audio files, the hobbyists. And it was a few years before the launch of the iPod, right?

Dave Hamilton (04:09):

Right.

Mike Dias (04:10):

So I was that guy who had a compact PC with the Sandist cards with my music loaded onto it. And when I met Mindy and Jerry and I saw in- ears, I got a glimpse of what could be coming with the portable audio revolution.

Dave Hamilton (04:27):

Interesting.

Mike Dias (04:28):

Yeah.

Dave Hamilton (04:28):

Okay. So I need to detour this because my entry point into this was because of my tech side being at Mac Observer and doing all the stuff that we do there. And so it was the UE5C, which was targeted towards the music listener, not the music performer that was sort of my entry point here. And it sounds like you and I may have been kindred spirits long before we met. Yes.

Mike Dias (04:57):

And that UB5C was a few years in the making, right? Got it. Before there was that, that was just the five and there was nothing about consumers, right?

Dave Hamilton (05:07):

Got it.

Mike Dias (05:08):

As musicians would use these as a tool, they'd also use them to listen. The legend has it that one of the members of Lincoln Park pulls Jerry aside and says, "Hey, there's this new thing called an iPod. You got to listen with your ears. It's mind

Dave Hamilton (05:27):

Blowing." That's amazing. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Mike Dias (05:32):

And so the 5C starts to introduce around that time. And there was a forum about that time. It's called headfi.org. And around then there's maybe, I don't know, 10,000 monthly viewers, unique viewers.

Dave Hamilton (05:50):

Yep.

Mike Dias (05:51):

It's three million right now.

Dave Hamilton (05:53):

Okay. Yeah, it's not surprising. I'm trying to put that into

Mike Dias (05:55):

Perspective. So yeah, that's me and how I came to this. The only thing that I'm passionate about ... Sorry, that's not true. They're not the only thing I'm passionate about.

Dave Hamilton (06:14):

I figured maybe the main thing.

Mike Dias (06:15):

Yeah. The main thing I'm passionate about is where music, art, technology, science, and business overlap. And for me, that's an ears embodied.

Dave Hamilton (06:25):

Got it. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. No, and I mean, you're not alone. Again, that's how I came into this too. And I also happened to be a musician as listeners to this show, certainly know, but that's ... Yeah, interesting. Fascinating. Okay.

Mike Dias (06:40):

Were you using a universal when you were gigging before the

Dave Hamilton (06:43):

5C? No. So to say that I've never gigged with Universal Fits is not true, but I started my in- ears with custom fits because of this other entry point here. So it was right as the UE5C came out, I got in touch with Jerry Harvey because of that. And then he's like, "Well, there's other paths here." And so that opened the door for me. I always wear earplugs though. So we talked about transitions a couple of episodes ago. My transition was not simple, but I think was way easier because I was already used to the level of sort of detachment that earplugs provide from your surroundings. And so at least I didn't have to deal with that.

Mike Dias (07:25):

What was it like the first time you plugged your 5Cs in? Oh,

Dave Hamilton (07:29):

It was amazing. Well, they didn't fit right the first time, but that's okay. They fixed that. And that's pretty typical. Although I will say that Ultimate Ears new laser ... What are they using now? Is it some sort of-

Mike Dias (07:44):

It's an additive 3D process.

Dave Hamilton (07:47):

3D scanning that does ... Instead of having your ears ... The traditional way of getting in ears done is to get molds done at an audiologist. And now Ultimate Ears has been using/experimenting with this 3D imaging that can be done by a non-audiologist, a well-trained, but non-audiologist person. And I will say that every set of in- ears I've ever gotten has never fit the first time. It's always a back and forth and it's fine. I mean, we're talking millimeters make a difference here. So something happens with the mold or it's just not quite right, whatever it is. The only set that's ever fit the first time is the one that was done with the 3D imaging. So it feels like that might be a good ... I mean, I'm a sample size of one, so maybe it doesn't matter, but certainly from my standpoint, it's like, oh, well, we've moved down the path a little bit.

(08:39):

So yeah. So

Paul Kent (08:40):

Mike, what is the purpose of the organization? And what kind of buy-in do you have from the manufacturers? And what do you do on behalf of them? I mean, they're all competitive and they're really very fine points about how they stake out their distinctions and their unique selling points. So how do you guys help that? And what is the charter of the organization and how do you represent your members?

Mike Dias (09:03):

Thanks for asking. So you're right. It was not easy to get everybody in the room and agree to be part of a larger organization for the greater good of the consumer and for the industry, but everybody knew that it's necessary. When I started, there were a handful of companies, and now there's over 250 manufacturers worldwide. This is changing, right? And it's continuing on this way. And by the way, there's a global headphone revolution that's happening and true wireless. We can touch on this in a bit, but the mission of the organization is to promote the use and benefits of in- ear monitors. And by doing that, by all working together to talk about how In-Ears help you perform your best benefits everybody. So you want to think of the organization as a marketing arm on behalf of the industry. Okay.

Dave Hamilton (09:58):

Advocacy.

Mike Dias (09:59):

Exactly. Okay.

Dave Hamilton (10:00):

Drink milk. Right, right. We don't care what brand you drink. I like it. There you go. That's good. Yeah, yeah.

Mike Dias (10:08):

Right. And then there's another component to it that I believe that what's happening on stage with working musicians and with the top touring musicians is that they're the epicenter of this global headphone revolution. The demands that they're making, the fidelity, the quality, the personalization, the robustness, we're able to work this out as an industry on stage and then we're able to take that and put it into a general consumer headphone for everybody else. This is like Formula one or eRacing, whatever analogy you want to go with. What's happening on stage is translating out to the wider space of headphones.

Dave Hamilton (10:52):

That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, because this is where the pros are using it. So you can afford to do sort of the more expensive experimental stuff that you don't have to do at scale in order to test it out in the consumer world and then find what works and bring it down.

Mike Dias (11:07):

Yeah. I would argue that true wireless would not be possible if it were not for the advent of the in- ears. I mean, if you're looking, if we want to get technical and talk about the balanced armatures and ...

Dave Hamilton (11:17):

That's a very interesting thing. I hadn't thought about that, but you're right. Yeah, balanced armatures, they didn't start here, but they started for consumers here.

Mike Dias (11:29):

Yeah.

Dave Hamilton (11:29):

Yeah. That's interesting. Now, if we could get true wireless with our onstage in ears, that'd be awesome, but there is some ... Physics gets in the way of that sometimes with latency.

Mike Dias (11:39):

Yeah. We're not there yet.

Dave Hamilton (11:40):

No, we're not.

Mike Dias (11:43):

Yeah. Paul, how did you start using Eaters?

Paul Kent (11:48):

My good friend, Dave, really advocated for the experience that he has. And I don't know if Dave has told you, but I'm like the worst case study for this because 10 years, and I'm still not 100% on in ears because I'm never comfortable. If I was to say one out of 10 or 15 or 20 gigs would be good, two or three out of 15 or 20 gigs would be I can get by. And a lot of times I'm put in a situation where we're ... I play in a big band that's pretty loud. I play in a 10 piece band, horns. Often when we're on a really small cramp stage, it's pretty loud on stage. And there's some places where I don't even have the option of having a wedge. And so sometimes I get it, I use an in- ear just as a necessity.

(12:29):

And I'm kind of down to the point now where I'm so fussy about the mix that goes in there and it really throws me off if it's not right or changes as time goes on that I'll just take my vocal so I can hear them and not have to push so bad. But yeah, I'm the poster child for the problem guy of in- ears.

Mike Dias (12:48):

I'd flip that. I'd say you're the poster child for in ears and what they should be and how they're supposed to serve. You're not alone in this one. No, no. And-

Paul Kent (12:59):

Well, and again, Dave's been my psychologist on this all the time and he believes there's a path to success there. And it's funny, in my 10-piece band, five, six, seven of the guys are using in- ears. All the horns, I have five-piece horns section, they all took to in ears really naturally. I don't know what they mix for themselves, but they're very happy and they took to it immediately. My fellow guitar player has taken to it very naturally and he doesn't have fitted. He has universal and he's really happy. He gets what he wants. The drummer, our drummer uses them often and is happy when he's happy. In some cases he just chooses not to. But myself, lead guitar and front guy and singer, my keyboard player, singer, and my bass player do not use them for all for different reasons. I desperately want to use them because I really want to save my voice and I really want ... When it's been great, you get kind of a glimpse into this Nirvana society that you can be a part of, but it's just I'm so sensitive that as a gig goes on and someone turns up and as soon as the mix is wrong for me, I can't deal with it.

(14:06):

And as soon as I take them out and kind of feel the energy from the stage, that kind of drives the live performance and then I can't go back in. And so I have a few moving targets as to why I haven't been able to, but I really want to be able to use them.

Dave Hamilton (14:20):

Yeah. Well, I mean, as a musician, I totally ... Your comment about the way it feels without them in on stage totally resonates with me, but I'm not a heroin addict and I don't ever want to be, but because I know it's bad for me, but I've also heard it feels really good. And so part of me doesn't allow myself to do that as much. Even I could point to gigs in the last year where it's been like, oh, I took one out because it just sounded so much better. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. It can sound great with the ears in. You just have to have the control over your mix is really ... I mean, you hit the nail on the head there. Yeah.

Paul Kent (15:05):

Well, again, I'm fronting the band and I rarely have time to futz with my mix as I'm going along. And once you kind of get into the flow of the show, it's hard to keep calling the sound guy up or sending hand signals to the guy, all these types of things.

Mike Dias (15:17):

Wait, he can't read your mind?

Paul Kent (15:19):

Yeah. If you could add that into the next version, that'd be really great.

Dave Hamilton (15:24):

And I realize we don't all have the benefit of having a dedicated monitor engineer per person or even for the band most of the time. If you even have someone helping you with your sound, they're doing everything, including front of house. But I do know some folks that their monitor engineer also wears in ears and can switch between mixes. So when you give him that look like something is wrong, well, he could switch to your mix and, oh, okay, maybe he's not great.

Paul Kent (15:58):

Yeah, Bill does do that, but he'll put on cans, not in ears. And I don't know how much of a different experience it is. I've really come to the conclusion, because everybody else seems to be cool with it, that I am just so hypersensitive

(16:13):

To the changes in the mix. And I don't know whether that psychologically sends a message that, "Oh crap, everything's going downhill. Take him out and get control of your show again," or what the deal is. But like I said, over the course of a night, my band gets louder, different guys in different ways. We're often a 10 piece fan on a really small stage and there's just interesting bleeds that happen from all over the place into my vocal mic. And I find it hard to get that relaxed place. The one or two times that I've had perfect experiences within ears have been pretty large stages where there's a lot of separation.

Mike Dias (16:48):

Interesting. What ambient ports do you have in your ears?

Paul Kent (16:52):

I have the sevens, so whatever those ports are, UE sevens.

Dave Hamilton (16:57):

And they are the seven ambients, Paul?

Paul Kent (16:59):

Yeah.

Dave Hamilton (17:00):

Yeah. Okay. All right.

Mike Dias (17:01):

And they have an on office and you're not switching out filters. It's either open or-

Dave Hamilton (17:06):

That's correct. I've had the sevens before too, and you can either plug the ambient port or not plug the ambient port. That's

Mike Dias (17:12):

Right. Yeah. So that's giving you about a 12 DB right in there.

Dave Hamilton (17:16):

Correct. Yeah. Okay, that's right. Yeah.

Paul Kent (17:19):

But again, Dave thinks I can get over it. We have another friend who's a pro mixer who has a different approach to getting people comfortable, but man, the one time you get a glimpse into paradise, it's like, "Oh, it can be like this. " And then the next time when you kind of go back to being frustrated with it, it's-

Dave Hamilton (17:37):

I wonder, your comment, and I realize we're sort of derailed here, but this is what happens on Gigab. Your comment about your vocal mic is interesting and your thought that the stage getting louder and then bleeding into your vocal mic makes a lot of sense. I wonder if you maybe considering changing your vocal mic to something that has a much tighter pattern. I know the Telefunken M80 or M81, M8X series, and there's a lot of different mics in there with different EQ patterns, but they're all very tight patterned mics and are great on stages that are prone to feedback with monitor wedges for exactly the same reason that they don't pick up a lot of off axis stuff. I wonder if-

Paul Kent (18:27):

Well, I used a beta 58, and I'm totally open to trying other things. And actually, before I take over this whole show with my problem, Mike, if you have a guy in the Bay Area who you think might be of help for me in terms of getting a foundational base mix that I might be able to work off of, I'm totally open to it. I've got a great sound guy. He's totally open to help. He's a little bit scratching his head as to why I'm so sensitive to these things. So if there's an approach to dealing with that sensitivity, I'd love to do it and then come back and report on the path to Nirvana.

Mike Dias (19:01):

Is game on. Game on. Yeah. Challenge accepted. Yeah. Bring it on, man. There you go. I will be your greatest success story. There's a couple companies doing some interesting innovations with the Ambien ports right now, purposely designing for Ambien always being on. And I think we'll probably start with that.

Dave Hamilton (19:19):

Interesting. All right. I want to hear just some of the examples of that, just so we're not leaving it nebulous for our listeners. But first, I want to talk about our sponsor for this episode, which is also gear related, different kind of gear. So perfect fit is ChoveDJ at chauvedj.com. That's C-H-A-U-V-E-T.com. And these folks, we've been using Chove DJ stuff in Fling since before this podcast started, so certainly before the sponsorship ever was even on the table, but their new gig bar move is awesome. Powerful, affordable, lightweight, and ultra convenient. It's got moving head fixtures, washlight pairs, strobes, and lasers all on one bar so that you set up and tear down in minutes without taking a lot of time and transportation space and all that stuff. They get that we're gigging musicians and that we need to be able to set this stuff up quickly and not with a lot of fanfare.

(20:21):

Just the fanfare is once it's up, not getting it all set up. So you got to check this out. This gig bar move, not only is there that, but you can control it with their BT Air app with your tablet or your phone so you can really configure this thing the way you want. Go check it out. Chovedj.com. Again, that's C-H-A-U-V-E-T.com. And I know it's DJ, but they make the stuff that we working musicians want too. It makes sense. Trust me on this. It's what, like I said, we've been using their stuff in Fling for years. It's awesome. So go check it out and our thanks to Chauvet DJ for sponsoring this episode. All right. So tell us about a little bit of that gear because this ambient stuff, I've always been a fan and I know there are ... If you want to find camps in the in- ear world, and these are my words, not anyone else's, certainly not Mike's, but if you want to find camps in the in- ear world, mention ambient and you can draw a line down the middle of the room.

(21:21):

There are some people that believe that we shouldn't ever use ambient stuff. There are some people that believe it is the path to Nirvana. I am most definitely on the camp that for me, it works. The ambient stuff worked really well. There are gigs where I don't use it, but I believe it is a great tool in the arsenal of getting in ears to work for many folks.

Mike Dias (21:45):

Yeah. This is a hot topic.

Dave Hamilton (21:46):

It's a hot topic. There

Mike Dias (21:48):

You go. We've injured murky

Dave Hamilton (21:50):

Waters. I know. I just wanted to acknowledge that because I know we've got folks listening that probably cringe anytime, even just the concept of ambient. And by ambient, what we mean is letting some of the stage wash sound in. You talked about the UE7 ambience that you wear, Paul, and that's what I'll call a passive ambient structure where you're literally changing ... If you think of in- ears starting as an earplug that blocks out everything and then has a speaker inside it, right? I mean, that's sort of a very reductive way of thinking about what in- ear monitors are. Ambient, in this case, the passive ambient means that they are slightly less of an earplug. They block maybe 12 to 15 DB instead of 25 to 30 db. And there's a little port that allows you to change how much of that ambient sound is being allowed in just passively on the stage.

(22:51):

So starting the conversation there, just to give people that haven't experienced this, some foundation, I'm curious what else is now coming up in the market.

Mike Dias (23:01):

Yeah. Thanks for saying that stage. Sure. So again, if we're going to draw a big picture, the umbrella, the concept of in- ears is you want to use them blocking everything out. You want to get that studio sound, that studio control.

Dave Hamilton (23:13):

Totally.

Mike Dias (23:14):

But Paul, just like you said, you lose some of that live feeling, which leads to you, Dave, pulling one out, which is the big no-no. I'm

Dave Hamilton (23:23):

Saying that- That's the no-no, right?

Mike Dias (23:24):

That's the no-no, right?

Dave Hamilton (23:25):

Right.

Mike Dias (23:26):

And worse than that, Paul, it leads to a situation where you're not using them and you're not getting any benefit. And so that's the real point of this conversation and why I'm grateful that you had me on here. I'm here to say and to advocate for the entire industry that in- ears help you take your game to another level, right? Anybody who's spending money on their gear, anybody who's investing in themselves, who's out working, playing, having fun with it, you could buy more mics, you can buy more anything, but really you want to get and invest in a personal ear system, a personal monitoring system, because it lets you practice a different way, it lets you perform a different way. The focus, the clarity, the detail that it gives you really lets you go into your craft, into your hobby, into your profession on another level, right?

Dave Hamilton (24:15):

Makes sense. Yeah.

Mike Dias (24:16):

Not having that experience or being blocked from it for any way, like what's happening to you, Paul, is eliminating this. And so it is better to move on the continuum than to do nothing whatsoever. And that's the point in your organization and just to have conversations like this, any listener right now who has a question about in- ears, email Dave anytime. Thanks. That's

Dave Hamilton (24:44):

Feedback@giggabodcast.com.

Mike Dias (24:46):

That's right. Or you could log onto the in- ear organization and just send me a note and I send them right over to all the actual manufacturers that you're looking to talk to. That's another huge part of the interview.

Dave Hamilton (24:59):

Got it. Okay. Yeah.

Mike Dias (25:00):

We answer your questions and we connect the dots. It's a platform that connects you with the manufacturers, with the sound engineer, anything you need in your related. So these therapy sessions, how do you use your in- ear? Yeah, yeah. No, it's good. Are what we want to have. Right. So getting back to this concept of ambient right now, it was from a manufacturer standpoint, you need it, but we're not really thinking about it and we just stick a tube in it. That's ambient.

Dave Hamilton (25:34):

Sure.

Mike Dias (25:35):

Now, there's a company out of Europe called Dynamic Ear Company, Deck,

(25:41):

And they have these purpose-built filters that are different than the automotive musician filters. And some of these filters have now found their way into in- ears that have been designed around the filter itself. In ears are funny because all the low end resonance that you're getting comes from bone conductivity. So one of the big problems with an ill-fitting in- ear, you have a lot of high and you're very tinny and you have no boominess. And if you're lucky enough to have a good fitting in ear or any one of you can test this by cracking it open a little bit and you're missing something. And so there's a fine line with opening with ambient. How do you open and still maintain low in resonance? Yeah, right. Well, you lose your seal by it, right? By definition. And you lose your seal, right? So how do you design a sound signature around something that can be closed and open and you're going to change the dynamics there?

(26:36):

And so they're now purpose built in ears. Weston is doing a series, ACS does a series, there's a few others. And these start with a filter and the sound signatures designed around it.

Dave Hamilton (26:49):

That makes sense. Okay. So still a passive system in that the sound that's coming in is just coming in from around you by its own energy, but built around that filter so that we're not just ... The filter's not the afterthought. The filter is the foundation of this.

Mike Dias (27:08):

Correct. Got it. Now there's other companies who are taking a different take in designing active ambient systems. Sense of phonics has been a pioneer

Dave Hamilton (27:16):

With

Mike Dias (27:16):

That.

Dave Hamilton (27:16):

Yeah. Sense of phonics had one 10 plus years ago or something, right?

Mike Dias (27:20):

And they've been able to take the entire system now and put it into a phone app. And so this is a revolution for concert musicians, for classical musicians. They're now able to use in ears. They can boost frequencies, if you will. Like let's say my left ear, I'm low at a certain bandwidth. I can boost that, but I can also change my ambient bleed depending on what or who's around me.

Dave Hamilton (27:44):

Interesting.

Mike Dias (27:46):

Yeah. This is one of the frontiers of in- ears right now of how do you do ambience. And now if we think about what we were talking about earlier with this is the center of technology, I'm walking down the street wearing an in- ear and boom, I get hit by a car. It's a problem, right? That's bad. Because I'm fully sealed up.

Dave Hamilton (28:04):

And

Mike Dias (28:05):

So as we move into true wireless, this is one of the situations that you need to have. How do you get fidelity, but how do you have spatial awareness? And right now everyone's doing this with active noise cancellation, a mic coming in, but it doesn't sound natural. Ambient is much more relevant than just working musicians. Even though we're talking about a subset of a subset of a subset, we're actually talking about solving true wireless for everybody right now. Sure.

Dave Hamilton (28:32):

Well, and I mean, Apple has made it popular with their AirPods. They are certainly not the first. Apple's rarely the first to do anything. They just tend to do it well and market it extremely well, but with the AirPods Pro and they've got the transparency mode or whatever they call that, where they're letting some of that sound in, even though it's sealed in your ear, supposedly sealed in your ear.

Mike Dias (28:56):

Yeah. And so that's an active system in this passive system. And so it gets really interesting how this goes.

Dave Hamilton (29:02):

Right, because an active system using a microphone is now you get to control. It's not just, is the port open or plugged. The microphone's always there. You just get to mix it as though it were another element of your overall mix, but the mics are on your person and not separated from you. So you don't ... The weird part, and I've used, especially when I started off, and I find this is true of most people that need this, is you start with an ambient mic. For me, it was easy because I've got mics on overhead, my drums. So they're fixed position, but so am I as a drummer. And bleeding more of that in to get that stage wash can really help. But it is a disconnected thing because the mic is not where I am seated. For me, it's above me, but for a guitar player, it could be even further away.

(29:55):

And as you move around the stage, the mic does not move with you. So you have this Fixed in space, ambient picture with a detached ambient mic with what Sensophonics was doing and perhaps others, the mic is on your person and sometimes right in the earpiece itself so that it's really where you're expecting to hear from.

Mike Dias (30:17):

Then there's another level, right? We haven't talked about this, but in ears are just half the equation. You got to talk about what you're plugging them into. Now there's a lot of these personal monitor mixers who are also putting a mic right into the mixer. So you can be on stage, you can have a mic in your mix, you can adjust it right there.

Dave Hamilton (30:37):

Oh, that's interesting.

Mike Dias (30:38):

Yeah.

Dave Hamilton (30:39):

Huh.

Mike Dias (30:40):

Makes sense.

Dave Hamilton (30:41):

Of course. Yeah. Interesting.

Paul Kent (30:45):

Anybody done any work to kind of compare the different approaches to getting ambient captured? Whether it's better to just put mics on the side of the stage or use these onstage ambient mixers. Is that something that you guys would do in order to come up with a guidebook or case studies for potential users?

Mike Dias (31:04):

Oh, you just threw me in the hot zone. Yeah. That's something we'll be working on, but this is, let's call it everybody's recipe. Everybody has a take on what to do and how to do it.

Dave Hamilton (31:20):

Got it. Yeah.

Mike Dias (31:22):

The ideal situation once you get comfortable within ears is to perform with them sealed in your studio environment on stage.

Dave Hamilton (31:34):

Yeah. I'm still not there to be fair. I don't use ambient mics anymore usually, but I do leave the ports open on my UAE 11s.

Mike Dias (31:50):

Yeah.

Dave Hamilton (31:50):

So one problem I have is because I'm a drummer, I need to hear my drums. I'm used to playing the drums and hearing them. So if I've sealed my ears off and I don't hear them, I will play louder. I always joke, but it's true. I tell every sound engineer, "Look, I'll control my own mix.That's fine. You don't have to worry about it. " But if I start playing too loudly, give me more snare drum. I will naturally play quieter. Self-preservation kicks right in. It's no problem. But the reverse is very much true. So if I'm not using the ambient ports, then I need more overhead and now I'm actually getting more stage wash into that overhead, usually if it's a smaller stage. And so it's this balance of I got to find, I need to be able to hear what I'm playing and now, okay.

(32:40):

And if I'm close micing everything, that's different. But a lot of times for gigs, it's kicks and arrow overhead kind of thing and you're off to the races. And so, yeah.

Mike Dias (32:48):

What's your take on tactile feedback? Oh, a butt kicker. Butt kicker is the generic brand of this, but Aviom's in the mix now. There's plenty of other people doing this.

Dave Hamilton (33:02):

I've never been comfortable. I grew up without any monitors whatsoever. I always joke that my kids are super spoiled because they had ... Yeah. Anyway, it's true because it's true. It's not a joke. But yeah, I was lucky. My brother was a guitar player in our band and he had this old gorilla amp, the tiny little, maybe it's got a six inch speaker in it or something. I started bringing that to gigs and feeding myself a monitor sensor. I could hear vocals. I was one of the harmony singers in the band and I still didn't have a monitor. It was just like whatever was in front of the drums. So the first gigs when we started playing and they wanted to give me kick drum and my monitor, they're like, "How much kick do you want? " I'm like, "Zero. What kind of question is that?

(33:47):

Why would I need ... The drum is right here. What are you talking about? " And then finally, of course, I experienced what most drummers have gotten used to where you hit your kickdrum and this speaker next to you just explodes with all this low end. That is terrible. I hate that. So I'm the wrong guy to ask about butt kickers because we were talking before the show, you get your sonic home and that's what's comfortable to you. And this is, I mean, we were talking about it before the show as a topic, but it really is the topic of the whole show. It's what's your sonic home for you, Paul, you're trying to approximate this thing that you are comfortable with and I'm doing the same thing, right? So yeah, Butt Kicker and me are not, we're not friends, but I have nothing against the product.

(34:33):

I think it actually makes a lot of sense for people that are used to that, but it's just, I don't need it. I don't want it.

Mike Dias (34:41):

I'm glad you brought up the concept of Sonic Home because I think that this encapsulates, sorry, encapsulates the whole program, right?

Dave Hamilton (34:49):

Right.

Mike Dias (34:50):

That little six inch gorilla amp speaker, that's your sonic home. That's the sound that resonates with you. But it's not. It's all of us in a garage. When I said I wasn't a musician, I mean, it didn't mean that I didn't play in my garage. Got it. I was a lousy musician.

Dave Hamilton (35:05):

Oh, okay.

Mike Dias (35:06):

Well, welcome to the club then. I've made money not playing, but that sound of playing in your garage with your friends and lousy amps and lousy gear, that's what we all have in our head. And it's funny because we have access to so much phenomenal high fidelity gear, but we have to train ourselves to get used to that.

Dave Hamilton (35:37):

Totally. No, that's exactly it. I'm lucky in that I am a geek and like to live on the bleeding edge and I like to have all the latest gadgets and toys. So in addition to, like you, Paul, having the desire to simply use in ears because it protects my hearing and all of those sort of foundational things, I also just like to use the latest gear. And so I liked being the guy that showed up at a gig 15 years ago with in ears because everybody was like, "Who are you? Who do you think you are? " It wasn't who are you. It was who do you think you are? That was the question, but it was just like, that's me. I'd like to have all this stuff. That's why I started a podcast 15 years ago.

(36:23):

But that adjustment, you have to ... Paul, when you said earlier, you want to get there, that's the key. Or if you're young and just starting out, or if you are a parent of someone who is just starting out, get them on in ears out of the gate so they never learn anything else. And their Sonic home now will be that and then there's no adjustment. You're just good to go. I will say, I had to play a gig three or four months ago where I chose not to be that guy that asked for an in- ear mix. I could have. I know the engineer, he's a dear friend. It would have been super easy, but we were playing a 35-minute set with four other bands. I understand what the engineer is going through in this world. And it was like, I can make his life easier and just not be that guy.

(37:15):

I had forgotten how noisy and washy and awful it sounds on stage. I mean, the gig was great. I had a fun gig, but it was awful. I hated the way it sounded. I couldn't hear anything. So I have the opposite problem of you, Paul, evidently. Yeah,

Mike Dias (37:32):

Evidently.

Dave Hamilton (37:32):

Evidently.

Mike Dias (37:33):

Paul, we just got to find your sonic home where we got to recreate you singing in the shower on stage.

Paul Kent (37:40):

Can you wear

Dave Hamilton (37:41):

Clothes though?

Paul Kent (37:43):

It's really best for everybody involved if we don't go there.

Dave Hamilton (37:46):

It is. It is. Well, this is awesome. I feel like we could talk for hours and we probably will, but is there anything else topically that you have in mind that you want to share here before we tell people where to find you and all that good stuff?

Mike Dias (38:04):

No, I want to thank you both for what you're doing. You've been doing this for 15 years. No,

Dave Hamilton (38:09):

No, this show's five years now. Actually, happy anniversary, Paul. Just two weeks ago, we hit our fifth year of GigGab.

Mike Dias (38:17):

You've been doing this for five years, but you've been doing podcasts since they came out. And think about that for a second. What a revolution of time and space. It's been crazy. Yeah. Thank you for always being a supporter and a passionate endorser of inears for musicians, for hobbyists. And thank you everybody who listened and who wants to be part of this movement too. We're all here for questions and this is your future, your ears, your craft, and it's worth investing in.

Dave Hamilton (38:47):

Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the show, man. Paul, do you have any other questions before we let Mike go here?

Paul Kent (38:54):

I don't have any other questions. I just think it's great. It does make entire sense. It's just this paradigm shift will allow musicians to play longer into their life without hearing loss. I know in those few moments when I have been really comfortable, my ability to emote vocally has been so much better when I can hear the nuance as opposed to just kind of like this blair coming from a wedge in front of me, just the ability to express even more. There's so much upside. And like I said, hopefully, all right, Mike, we'll connect after. And like I said, I will be your poster child for opportunity and success here because I really, really, really would like to get there and achieve that Sonic Nirvana.

Dave Hamilton (39:37):

We'll get you there, man. You've got a lot of people committed to this, so yeah.

Paul Kent (39:42):

It takes a village, my friend. The

Dave Hamilton (39:44):

Team is strong. That's right. Yeah.

Mike Dias (39:46):

A special thanks to all the Iamido members for allowing me to do this. And thank you everybody.

Dave Hamilton (39:53):

Yeah, man. And so if people want to find Iamido, where do they go for this? Inearmonitor.org. Inearmonitor.org. Well, thank you, Mike. Awesome to see you again. Awesome to have you on the show. Thanks everybody for listening and we're good, right, Paul? We're good?

Paul Kent (40:13):

We're good, man.

Dave Hamilton (40:14):

We're good. All right.

Paul Kent (40:16):

I have one last thing to say.

Dave Hamilton (40:17):

What is that?

Paul Kent (40:19):

Always be curelling your microphone.

Dave Hamilton (40:23):

That is good advice, my friend. That's always

Paul Kent (40:25):

Been good

Dave Hamilton (40:26):

Advice. That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. You want to be able to keep performing. That's the key. See you next week, folks.

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